[OpenWrt-Devel] is anybody working on supporting Linksys WRT1900ac ?

[v***@gmail.com]

I see no mention of this router on dev mailing list, so is this article
true:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/01/linksys-resurrects-classic-blue-router-with-open-source-and-300-price/

and also in tekzilla video Linksys/Belkin claims that this router will have
OpenWrt support first day it comes out:

Is anybody of OpenWrt devs working with Linksys to support this router? Are
any of you on NDAs to can't mention this? :)

[John Crispin]

Post by v***@gmail.com
I see no mention of this router on dev mailing list, so is this article
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/01/linksys-resurrects-classic-blue-router-with-open-source-and-300-price/
and also in tekzilla video Linksys/Belkin claims that this router will
http://youtu.be/vV6IkvXUZUU
Is anybody of OpenWrt devs working with Linksys to support this router?
Are any of you on NDAs to can't mention this? :)

Hi,

we talked about this internally and are not aware of any developer that
was pinged by linksys. what we know so far

* unit most likely runs on a ghz arm soc made by marvell
* unit is about 1,5x the size of the original
* the unit is really expensive - you can get a time capsule for that
price with a 2TB disc or even a low end qnap


lets see if they actually contact us or if it was a marketing hoax

John

[v***@gmail.com]

Post by John Crispin

Post by v***@gmail.com
I see no mention of this router on dev mailing list, so is this article
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/
01/linksys-resurrects-classic-blue-router-with-open-source-and-300-price/
and also in tekzilla video Linksys/Belkin claims that this router will
http://youtu.be/vV6IkvXUZUU
Is anybody of OpenWrt devs working with Linksys to support this router?
Are any of you on NDAs to can't mention this? :)

Hi,
we talked about this internally and are not aware of any developer that
was pinged by linksys. what we know so far
* unit most likely runs on a ghz arm soc made by marvell
* unit is about 1,5x the size of the original
* the unit is really expensive - you can get a time capsule for that price
with a 2TB disc or even a low end qnap
lets see if they actually contact us or if it was a marketing hoax
John

Thought so, so I sent a few tweets to linksys, tekizilla, patrick norton,
cnet and CES, asking then why they didn't check the sources before
releasing this info regarding openwrt support (ah, journalism)

on a side note, I really like sata port they put on this device, are there
any other devices with openwrt support that have sata ports?

My prediction is that after they figure out there is no way this thing will
sell at that price point they will ship a "light" version with almost same
specs at ~150$ price range

Also on a tangent - on openwrt forums guys mentioned this as a alternative
AC router which is much cheaper (but also not yet released) -
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2037429657/almond-80211ac-touchscreen-wifi-router-smart-home
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2037429657/almond-80211ac-touchscreen-wifi-router-smart-home/posts/611489

[Chirag Chhatriwala]

Post by John Crispin
Hi,
we talked about this internally and are not aware of any developer that
was pinged by linksys. what we know so far
* unit most likely runs on a ghz arm soc made by marvell
* unit is about 1,5x the size of the original
* the unit is really expensive - you can get a time capsule for that price
with a 2TB disc or even a low end qnap
lets see if they actually contact us or if it was a marketing hoax
John

Not sure how I missed this thread. However, if they do end up working with
a few devs here on the OpenWrt team (fingers crossed), it would do wonders
for Belkin/Linksys brand as well as for the Marvell SoCs which have had
zero exposure to the open source community because of lack of drivers. I
never understood why Linksys (under Cisco) didn't capitalize on the
OpenSource Market after the huge success of the WRT54GL series. Linksys
(under Belkin) is appealing to its target end-users perfectly.

As an aside, this could potentially mean extended support for pre-existing
Linksys EAxxxx routers which are based off the Marvell SoC (maybe?).

Hope this isn't too good to be true.
Unless there are some NDAs involved, it would be great to hear some updates
on this subject.

Best Regards,
Chirag

[James Hilliard]

Maybe they took some of my suggestions when I sent GPL notices to them
http://sourceforge.net/projects/officiallinksysfirmware/files/ although
they still haven't complied with a number of the requests for certain
devices.

Post by Chirag Chhatriwala
Hi,

Post by John Crispin
we talked about this internally and are not aware of any developer that
was pinged by linksys. what we know so far
* unit most likely runs on a ghz arm soc made by marvell
* unit is about 1,5x the size of the original
* the unit is really expensive - you can get a time capsule for that
price with a 2TB disc or even a low end qnap
lets see if they actually contact us or if it was a marketing hoax
John

Not sure how I missed this thread. However, if they do end up working with
a few devs here on the OpenWrt team (fingers crossed), it would do wonders
for Belkin/Linksys brand as well as for the Marvell SoCs which have had
zero exposure to the open source community because of lack of drivers. I
never understood why Linksys (under Cisco) didn't capitalize on the
OpenSource Market after the huge success of the WRT54GL series. Linksys
(under Belkin) is appealing to its target end-users perfectly.
As an aside, this could potentially mean extended support for pre-existing
Linksys EAxxxx routers which are based off the Marvell SoC (maybe?).
Hope this isn't too good to be true.
Unless there are some NDAs involved, it would be great to hear some
updates on this subject.
Best Regards,
Chirag
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https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel

[Peter Lawler]

Just noticed the web page about it

http://www.linksys.com/en-us/wrt-wireless-router

Says: "open source ready"

Sounds to me like it'll be OpenWRT 'friendly', insofar as ease of
flashing and not hating on people who try it out, rather than shipping
with OpenWRT. Which (a) makes sense from a first iteration hardware PoV
(b) would tally with what some of the devs have said on this list about
not having heard a thing from them about it.

Pete.

Post by James Hilliard
Maybe they took some of my suggestions when I sent GPL notices to them
http://sourceforge.net/projects/officiallinksysfirmware/files/ although
they still haven't complied with a number of the requests for certain
devices.

Post by Chirag Chhatriwala
Hi,

Post by John Crispin
we talked about this internally and are not aware of any developer that
was pinged by linksys. what we know so far
* unit most likely runs on a ghz arm soc made by marvell
* unit is about 1,5x the size of the original
* the unit is really expensive - you can get a time capsule for that
price with a 2TB disc or even a low end qnap
lets see if they actually contact us or if it was a marketing hoax
John

Not sure how I missed this thread. However, if they do end up working with
a few devs here on the OpenWrt team (fingers crossed), it would do wonders
for Belkin/Linksys brand as well as for the Marvell SoCs which have had
zero exposure to the open source community because of lack of drivers. I
never understood why Linksys (under Cisco) didn't capitalize on the
OpenSource Market after the huge success of the WRT54GL series. Linksys
(under Belkin) is appealing to its target end-users perfectly.
As an aside, this could potentially mean extended support for pre-existing
Linksys EAxxxx routers which are based off the Marvell SoC (maybe?).
Hope this isn't too good to be true.
Unless there are some NDAs involved, it would be great to hear some
updates on this subject.
Best Regards,
Chirag
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[Peter Lawler]

Oh, bad me for replying to myself... but from the press release page:

http://www.linksys.com/en-us/press/releases/2014-01-06_Linksys_wrt_revolutionizes_wireless_networking

"Linksys has also been working with the OpenWRT community to make an
open source firmware downloadable when product is available."

That sentence barely parses.

Making a firmware downloadable, but no source huh?

Working with the community but this thread suggests otherwise?

But hey, marketing.

P.

Post by Peter Lawler
Just noticed the web page about it
http://www.linksys.com/en-us/wrt-wireless-router
Says: "open source ready"
Sounds to me like it'll be OpenWRT 'friendly', insofar as ease of
flashing and not hating on people who try it out, rather than shipping
with OpenWRT. Which (a) makes sense from a first iteration hardware PoV
(b) would tally with what some of the devs have said on this list about
not having heard a thing from them about it.
Pete.

Post by James Hilliard
Maybe they took some of my suggestions when I sent GPL notices to them
http://sourceforge.net/projects/officiallinksysfirmware/files/ although
they still haven't complied with a number of the requests for certain
devices.
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 12:15 PM, Chirag Chhatriwala

Post by Chirag Chhatriwala
Hi,

Post by John Crispin
we talked about this internally and are not aware of any developer that
was pinged by linksys. what we know so far
* unit most likely runs on a ghz arm soc made by marvell
* unit is about 1,5x the size of the original
* the unit is really expensive - you can get a time capsule for that
price with a 2TB disc or even a low end qnap
lets see if they actually contact us or if it was a marketing hoax
John

Not sure how I missed this thread. However, if they do end up working with
a few devs here on the OpenWrt team (fingers crossed), it would do wonders
for Belkin/Linksys brand as well as for the Marvell SoCs which have had
zero exposure to the open source community because of lack of drivers. I
never understood why Linksys (under Cisco) didn't capitalize on the
OpenSource Market after the huge success of the WRT54GL series. Linksys
(under Belkin) is appealing to its target end-users perfectly.
As an aside, this could potentially mean extended support for pre-existing
Linksys EAxxxx routers which are based off the Marvell SoC (maybe?).
Hope this isn't too good to be true.
Unless there are some NDAs involved, it would be great to hear some
updates on this subject.
Best Regards,
Chirag
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[Peter Lawler]

Post by Peter Lawler
http://www.linksys.com/en-us/press/releases/2014-01-06_Linksys_wrt_revolutionizes_wireless_networking

Even worse, replying to my own reply

Further down that page is commentary about OpenWRT, DDWRT etc.

It also mentions they're planning to release devboards to developers.

It also gives a name, email address and phone number for a contact about
the product.

I'm not in the same TZ as the contact, by ~15 hours. Maybe someone on
this list who is a little closer could call up and ask what's what ;)

Pete.

[Fernando Frediani]

I'm a old fan of Linksys and really believe this new device has a lot of
potential in the coming era of "AC" devices. The fact that Linksys now
belongs to Belkin I'm not sure yet if it's a good think or not, too soon
to say. We'll see and hope that is a step ahead in everybody's benefit,
vendor and users.

However if they are only trying to take advantage of the OpenWRT name
but not really contributing and engaging with the community they should
not get the expected result from anyone here.
I suspect there are people from Belkin/Linksys in this mail list and
already working on it, but I also believe they should be engaging with
us and being more clear with they intentions and plans when they
mention OpenWRT in their marketing material. Nobody expects they to show
any industrial secrets, but at least to work close to OpenWRT developers
and release all the relevant open source material.

Regards,

Fernando

Post by Peter Lawler
http://www.linksys.com/en-us/press/releases/2014-01-06_Linksys_wrt_revolutionizes_wireless_networking
"Linksys has also been working with the OpenWRT community to make an
open source firmware downloadable when product is available."
That sentence barely parses.
Making a firmware downloadable, but no source huh?
Working with the community but this thread suggests otherwise?
But hey, marketing.
P.

Post by Peter Lawler
Just noticed the web page about it
http://www.linksys.com/en-us/wrt-wireless-router
Says: "open source ready"
Sounds to me like it'll be OpenWRT 'friendly', insofar as ease of
flashing and not hating on people who try it out, rather than shipping
with OpenWRT. Which (a) makes sense from a first iteration hardware PoV
(b) would tally with what some of the devs have said on this list about
not having heard a thing from them about it.
Pete.

Post by James Hilliard
Maybe they took some of my suggestions when I sent GPL notices to them
http://sourceforge.net/projects/officiallinksysfirmware/files/ although
they still haven't complied with a number of the requests for certain
devices.
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 12:15 PM, Chirag Chhatriwala

Post by Chirag Chhatriwala
Hi,

Post by John Crispin
we talked about this internally and are not aware of any developer that
was pinged by linksys. what we know so far
* unit most likely runs on a ghz arm soc made by marvell
* unit is about 1,5x the size of the original
* the unit is really expensive - you can get a time capsule for that
price with a 2TB disc or even a low end qnap
lets see if they actually contact us or if it was a marketing hoax
John

Not sure how I missed this thread. However, if they do end up working with
a few devs here on the OpenWrt team (fingers crossed), it would do wonders
for Belkin/Linksys brand as well as for the Marvell SoCs which have had
zero exposure to the open source community because of lack of drivers. I
never understood why Linksys (under Cisco) didn't capitalize on the
OpenSource Market after the huge success of the WRT54GL series. Linksys
(under Belkin) is appealing to its target end-users perfectly.
As an aside, this could potentially mean extended support for pre-existing
Linksys EAxxxx routers which are based off the Marvell SoC (maybe?).
Hope this isn't too good to be true.
Unless there are some NDAs involved, it would be great to hear some
updates on this subject.
Best Regards,
Chirag
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[James Cloos]

JC> * unit most likely runs on a ghz arm soc made by marvell

IIRC, semiaccurate reported that it uses an atom processor.

-JimC
--
James Cloos <***@jhcloos.com> OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

[John Crispin]

Post by James Cloos
JC> * unit most likely runs on a ghz arm soc made by marvell
IIRC, semiaccurate reported that it uses an atom processor.
-JimC
--

i beg to differ, please get your facts right :)

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi John,

Post by John Crispin

Post by James Cloos
JC> * unit most likely runs on a ghz arm soc made by marvell
IIRC, semiaccurate reported that it uses an atom processor.

That truly was reported on semiaccurate.com as an atom part:
http://semiaccurate.com/2014/01/06/linksys-wrt1900ac-spritual-successor-wrt54g/
(but later updated with a correction)

Post by John Crispin

Post by James Cloos
-JimC
--

i beg to differ, please get your facts right :)

Well, his facts were that semi accurate reported it as an atom, and they did. :)

ahoy
SM

Post by John Crispin
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[James Cloos]

SM> That truly was reported on semiaccurate.com as an atom part:
SM> http://semiaccurate.com/2014/01/06/linksys-wrt1900ac-spritual-successor-wrt54g/

Thanks for finding that!

SM> (but later updated with a correction)

-JimC
--
James Cloos <***@jhcloos.com> OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

[Florian Fainelli]

Post by James Cloos
SM> http://semiaccurate.com/2014/01/06/linksys-wrt1900ac-spritual-successor-wrt54g/
Thanks for finding that!
SM> (but later updated with a correction)

Knowing Linksys/Belkin, rev 1 could be one vendor, rev 2 could be
another one, and then they will realize that they can save some money
by reducing the flash size and use VxWorks instead of Linux (wait,
this happened before).
--
Florian

[Peter Lawler]

Post by John Crispin
lets see if they actually contact us or if it was a marketing hoax

Following up to my question on IRC, just in case requisite eyes weren't
there when I asked:
< me> any news on the belkin devbox seeding yet?
< jow_laptop> vdotplaw: "belkin devbox seeding" ?
< me> jow_laptop: their WRT1900AC announcements, said they'd seed kit to
the community before release
< jow_laptop> vdotplaw: no hardware was received by openwrt

(Note that what I said about seeding was from memory, I didn't bother
looking for a cite but I'm 99.9% sure it was out there in their original
announcement somewhere)

Brings me back to wondering how, in two weeks time, they're expecting to
release hardware that'll have stable, supported OpenWRT out of the box.
Personally, I'm loathed to pre-order if even no devkit has been tested.
It could be months before proper OpenWRT is stable, let alone peer
review on the AC stuff happens (Do we even know if we're talking a
proper open source driver or binary blobs...)


Any further info out there appreciated.


Cheers,


Pete.


http://wrt1900ac.com/2014/03/25/wrt1900ac-available-for-preorder/
http://store.linksys.com/Linksys-WRT1900AC-App-Enabled-AC1900-Dual-Band-Wireless-Router_stcVVproductId158014980VVcatId553965VVviewprod.htm
http://wrt1900ac.org/

[Peter Lawler]

Post by Peter Lawler

Post by John Crispin
lets see if they actually contact us or if it was a marketing hoax

Following up to my question on IRC, just in case requisite eyes weren't

Don't like answering my own emails, but anyways...

I pinged Linksys on Twitter, got this response:
https://twitter.com/Linksys/status/449637059108814848

"Hi Pete! We are working with one of the OpenWRT founders and his team.
We'll be sharing more details later... Stay tuned! :)"

Guess this could mean they're doing it without Dev hardware at hand,
which is a bit odd now given Linksys are less than a month from expected
release. I expressed some frustration that I can't pre-order with
confidence w/o open peer review and/or at least a name from the project
to attach to a 'yeah linksys aren't telling marketing stories' type
statement and they (the twitter account operator) did seem to understand
though then again that could be marketing.

Though it does seem more and more likely it's not just marketing speak
we've seen, I still won't be pre-ordering in bulk (which probably will
mean my customers will have to wait as it goes out of stock etc. heh
call me a cynic then again maybe they'll do that rare thing in the tech
world and initiial product run will actually meet initial product
demand... OK I'm ranting now)

Cheers,

Pete.

[Catalin Patulea]

On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Peter Lawler

Post by Peter Lawler
"Hi Pete! We are working with one of the OpenWRT founders and his team.
We'll be sharing more details later... Stay tuned! :)"

Maybe that's why core OpenWRT devs haven't been merging patches for
over a month.

[Peter Lawler]

Post by Catalin Patulea
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Peter Lawler

Post by Peter Lawler
"Hi Pete! We are working with one of the OpenWRT founders and his team.
We'll be sharing more details later... Stay tuned! :)"

Maybe that's why core OpenWRT devs haven't been merging patches for
over a month.

Well I do hope it's this reason and not that they've been hit by the
proverbial bus :-)

[John Crispin]

Post by Catalin Patulea
Maybe that's why core OpenWRT devs haven't been merging patches
for over a month.

what a pile if bullshit you are talking ...

[Catalin Patulea]

Sorry, my comment was out of line.

Post by John Crispin

Post by Catalin Patulea
Maybe that's why core OpenWRT devs haven't been merging patches
for over a month.

what a pile if bullshit you are talking ...
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[Gerry Rozema]

Post by Peter Lawler
"Hi Pete! We are working with one of the OpenWRT founders and his
team. We'll be sharing more details later... Stay tuned! :)"

https://dev.openwrt.org/wiki/people

Two listed there as founders, and I'm one of the two.

Isn't me, so it must be Mike

[Fernando Frediani]

Then the obvious question is: Mike, if it's really you according to
Linksys and Gerry statements, why don't you say a word about it in the
list ? Did you sign a non-disclosure agreement ?

Post by Gerry Rozema

Post by Peter Lawler
"Hi Pete! We are working with one of the OpenWRT founders and his
team. We'll be sharing more details later... Stay tuned! :)"

https://dev.openwrt.org/wiki/people
Two listed there as founders, and I'm one of the two.
Isn't me, so it must be Mike
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[Peter Lawler]

Post by Fernando Frediani
Then the obvious question is: Mike, if it's really you according to
Linksys and Gerry statements, why don't you say a word about it in the
list ? Did you sign a non-disclosure agreement ?

Most NDAs I've *cough* seen say you're not allowed to mention the
existence of the NDA

[Hartmut Knaack]

Post by Gerry Rozema

Post by Peter Lawler
"Hi Pete! We are working with one of the OpenWRT founders and his
team. We'll be sharing more details later... Stay tuned! :)"

https://dev.openwrt.org/wiki/people
Two listed there as founders, and I'm one of the two.
Isn't me, so it must be Mike

Mike, are you still alive and on the list?

Post by Gerry Rozema
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[Fernando Frediani]

NDA = $$$ = Quiet

I just don't understand what is the problem, if it's really true, to
tell the most interested people (developers) that you are working on
something directly related to the project, even without giving any
further details due the NDA.

Post by Hartmut Knaack

Post by Gerry Rozema

Post by Peter Lawler
"Hi Pete! We are working with one of the OpenWRT founders and his
team. We'll be sharing more details later... Stay tuned! :)"

https://dev.openwrt.org/wiki/people
Two listed there as founders, and I'm one of the two.
Isn't me, so it must be Mike

Mike, are you still alive and on the list?

Post by Gerry Rozema
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[José Vázquez]

There is something that still don't understand: why is there so much
interest in the WRT1900ac? A Wandboard quad + i.e. TL-WDR7500 is a
more exciting, more powerful and more versatile combo.
It is a bit funny to take a look at the code which include a binary patch.
Direct Link: ftp://Temp90523934364:***@ftp.belkin.com/Temp90523934364

In addition there are very interesting comments in the mailing list:
https://lists.openwrt.org/pipermail/openwrt-devel/2014-April/024589.html


In this moment i'm much more interested in test Jonas' jffs2 patch for
the BCM63XX target.

Regards:

Pepe

Post by Fernando Frediani
NDA = $$$ = Quiet
I just don't understand what is the problem, if it's really true, to
tell the most interested people (developers) that you are working on
something directly related to the project, even without giving any
further details due the NDA.

Post by Hartmut Knaack

Post by Gerry Rozema

Post by Peter Lawler
"Hi Pete! We are working with one of the OpenWRT founders and his
team. We'll be sharing more details later... Stay tuned! :)"

https://dev.openwrt.org/wiki/people
Two listed there as founders, and I'm one of the two.
Isn't me, so it must be Mike

Mike, are you still alive and on the list?

Post by Gerry Rozema
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[Peter Lawler]

Post by José Vázquez
There is something that still don't understand: why is there so much
interest in the WRT1900ac? A Wandboard quad + i.e. TL-WDR7500 is a
more exciting, more powerful and more versatile combo.

As we've seen from elsewhere in this thread, they've already submitted
some patches[1] in a non-standard format and had them knocked back. The
'quality' of the submission does kinda make me wonder whether the folks
designing the box never in their wildest dreams expected to get approval
from Linksys's new owners to go the FLOSS path. I actually kinda have
the feeling that the Linksys engis have had an OpenWRT capable box in
their office for some time and it's the new owners that have allowed
them to productise. But I digress...

Now that I'm actually convinced that they are working on having OpenWRT,
I've started to re-read their product announcements [2]. Whilst
originally I (and maybe others) expected it to have been ready with OWRT
out of the box it's pretty clear to me now that they never intended it
to be OWRT ready on launch day but at some time after launch. This is
probably why Bastian never got a response to his request for a bunch of
dev boxes[3]. Which kinda dovetails in to... Given the quality of the
patch submitted in [1], I'm expecting it'll be OpenWRT ready and
production stable say June at the earliest.

As for the TL-WDR7500, the one obvious thing the 1900ac has that it
doesn't is eSATA. Also, at the time of initial 1900ac announcement,
there was no working 5GHz on the WDR7500 [4] so interest for me to a
very large degree is in the performance in that spectrum.

Anyway, enough from me for first in the morning emails before my coffee.
Good luck to both 'teams' working on 5GHz stuff for OpenWRT. Having a
choice in hardware can only benefit everyone.


Pete.

1 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.embedded.openwrt.devel/23500
2
http://store.linksys.com/Linksys-WRT1900AC-Open-Source-Wireless-Router_stcVVproductId158014980VVcatId551966VVviewprod.htm
[Apparently they're still supporting WinXP as a host PC platform, popcorn!]
3 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.embedded.openwrt.devel/23513
4 https://lists.openwrt.org/pipermail/openwrt-devel/2014-March/024459.html

[Fernando Frediani]

Reading all this discussion around WRT1900ac makes me wonder of something:

- When Belkin acquired Linksys and announced WRT1900ac they made a big
noise (marketing) about "OpenWRT compatibility" so they are using the
project's name for their financial benefit, make people believe in that
to buy the hardware (nothing that stops them to do that really).
- Anyone here would then expect they engage with developers and submit
patches for the work they are doing. They kind of showed up but very
briefly and submmited a non-acceptable patch so far.
- Therefore they are subscribed to this email list seeing all this
discussion around their product and either:
- They watch it silently, laugh and ignore it (which is not good).
- They are not even aware or following this discussion (which is
not good too).

Therefore I get confused of what the next steps will be around it and
the output of this discussion will end.

Regards,

Fernando

Post by Peter Lawler

Post by José Vázquez
There is something that still don't understand: why is there so much
interest in the WRT1900ac? A Wandboard quad + i.e. TL-WDR7500 is a
more exciting, more powerful and more versatile combo.

As we've seen from elsewhere in this thread, they've already submitted
some patches[1] in a non-standard format and had them knocked back.
The 'quality' of the submission does kinda make me wonder whether the
folks designing the box never in their wildest dreams expected to get
approval from Linksys's new owners to go the FLOSS path. I actually
kinda have the feeling that the Linksys engis have had an OpenWRT
capable box in their office for some time and it's the new owners that
have allowed them to productise. But I digress...
Now that I'm actually convinced that they are working on having
OpenWRT, I've started to re-read their product announcements [2].
Whilst originally I (and maybe others) expected it to have been ready
with OWRT out of the box it's pretty clear to me now that they never
intended it to be OWRT ready on launch day but at some time after
launch. This is probably why Bastian never got a response to his
request for a bunch of dev boxes[3]. Which kinda dovetails in to...
Given the quality of the patch submitted in [1], I'm expecting it'll
be OpenWRT ready and production stable say June at the earliest.
As for the TL-WDR7500, the one obvious thing the 1900ac has that it
doesn't is eSATA. Also, at the time of initial 1900ac announcement,
there was no working 5GHz on the WDR7500 [4] so interest for me to a
very large degree is in the performance in that spectrum.
Anyway, enough from me for first in the morning emails before my
coffee. Good luck to both 'teams' working on 5GHz stuff for OpenWRT.
Having a choice in hardware can only benefit everyone.
Pete.
1 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.embedded.openwrt.devel/23500
2
http://store.linksys.com/Linksys-WRT1900AC-Open-Source-Wireless-Router_stcVVproductId158014980VVcatId551966VVviewprod.htm
[Apparently they're still supporting WinXP as a host PC platform, popcorn!]
3 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.embedded.openwrt.devel/23513
4
https://lists.openwrt.org/pipermail/openwrt-devel/2014-March/024459.html
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[Felix Fietkau]

Post by Fernando Frediani
- When Belkin acquired Linksys and announced WRT1900ac they made a big
noise (marketing) about "OpenWRT compatibility" so they are using the
project's name for their financial benefit, make people believe in that
to buy the hardware (nothing that stops them to do that really).
- Anyone here would then expect they engage with developers and submit
patches for the work they are doing. They kind of showed up but very
briefly and submmited a non-acceptable patch so far.
- Therefore they are subscribed to this email list seeing all this
- They watch it silently, laugh and ignore it (which is not good).
- They are not even aware or following this discussion (which is
not good too).
Therefore I get confused of what the next steps will be around it and
the output of this discussion will end.

The code quality issues in the patches are fixable. The biggest problem
with this is the fact that right now, the wifi chip (from Marvell) needs
a proprietary driver to run. The submitted patches only include a
prebuilt .ko for this driver.
The response I got from Belkin indicates that they didn't realize that
this was going to be a problem and they are now trying to fix it.

I've seen this happen to other open source related projects using
Marvell hardware as well, so the big question is whether Belkin can put
enough pressure on them to get the source code released.

Even if that happens, the source code will most likely need a rewrite or
an insane amount of cleanup, as is typical for proprietary wifi drivers
in the embedded space.

There are many signs that if released, the source code to this driver is
going to be horrible: weird function names, big module size, use of
custom vendor-specific hostapd and wpa_supplicant drivers. This is most
likely going to take a long time to resolve.

A lot of this mess could have been avoided, if Belkin had talked to the
developer community before finalizing the hardware specs. However, this
is a lesson that a lot of companies trying to get into the open source
market will have to learn the hard way.

I'm assuming that the intentions behind creating this device were good,
but given the uncertain nature of the wifi driver issue, I would not
recommend buying any WRT1900AC devices until we have an open source wifi
driver for it.

- Felix

[Bjørn Mork]

Post by Felix Fietkau
I've seen this happen to other open source related projects using
Marvell hardware as well, so the big question is whether Belkin can put
enough pressure on them to get the source code released.
Even if that happens, the source code will most likely need a rewrite or
an insane amount of cleanup, as is typical for proprietary wifi drivers
in the embedded space.
There are many signs that if released, the source code to this driver is
going to be horrible: weird function names, big module size, use of
custom vendor-specific hostapd and wpa_supplicant drivers. This is most
likely going to take a long time to resolve.

I know these comments are based on experience, but I still feel you are
a bit too pessimistic here :-)

After all, we do have the mwl8k driver in mainline and Marvell has
commited a lot to that, including the 8764 bits. It's not too unlikely
that they will add 8864 support as well, is it? And wrt the size: Some
of this is probably due to firmware being built into the module. And
some is debugging symbols. The rest is of course bloat mostly caused by
unnecessary reimplementation.


Bjørn

[Felix Fietkau]

Post by Bjørn Mork

Post by Felix Fietkau
I've seen this happen to other open source related projects using
Marvell hardware as well, so the big question is whether Belkin can put
enough pressure on them to get the source code released.
Even if that happens, the source code will most likely need a rewrite or
an insane amount of cleanup, as is typical for proprietary wifi drivers
in the embedded space.
There are many signs that if released, the source code to this driver is
going to be horrible: weird function names, big module size, use of
custom vendor-specific hostapd and wpa_supplicant drivers. This is most
likely going to take a long time to resolve.

I know these comments are based on experience, but I still feel you are
a bit too pessimistic here :-)

I really do hope to be proven wrong on this one.

Post by Bjørn Mork
After all, we do have the mwl8k driver in mainline and Marvell has
commited a lot to that, including the 8764 bits. It's not too unlikely
that they will add 8864 support as well, is it?

I don't know how likely or unlikely it is. I also don't know how likely
it is that they will care about the driver enough to keep AP mode
support for embedded devices tested and working well, as opposed to just
adding it as an afterthought.

Post by Bjørn Mork
And wrt the size: Some
of this is probably due to firmware being built into the module. And
some is debugging symbols. The rest is of course bloat mostly caused by
unnecessary reimplementation.

Right.

[Hauke Mehrtens]

Post by Felix Fietkau

Post by Bjørn Mork

Post by Felix Fietkau
I've seen this happen to other open source related projects using
Marvell hardware as well, so the big question is whether Belkin can put
enough pressure on them to get the source code released.
Even if that happens, the source code will most likely need a rewrite or
an insane amount of cleanup, as is typical for proprietary wifi drivers
in the embedded space.
There are many signs that if released, the source code to this driver is
going to be horrible: weird function names, big module size, use of
custom vendor-specific hostapd and wpa_supplicant drivers. This is most
likely going to take a long time to resolve.

I know these comments are based on experience, but I still feel you are
a bit too pessimistic here :-)

I really do hope to be proven wrong on this one.

Post by Bjørn Mork
After all, we do have the mwl8k driver in mainline and Marvell has
commited a lot to that, including the 8764 bits. It's not too unlikely
that they will add 8864 support as well, is it?

I don't know how likely or unlikely it is. I also don't know how likely
it is that they will care about the driver enough to keep AP mode
support for embedded devices tested and working well, as opposed to just
adding it as an afterthought.

Post by Bjørn Mork
And wrt the size: Some
of this is probably due to firmware being built into the module. And
some is debugging symbols. The rest is of course bloat mostly caused by
unnecessary reimplementation.

Right.

A driver for the Avastar 88W8764, which seams to be an older version of
the driver used by Belkin for their 88W8864 was released under the terms
of the GPL on github:
https://github.com/kmihelich/wlan-smileplug

I checked ~5 function names from this source code and found them in the
binary provided by Belkin.

This situation looks better than the situation around Broadcom wireless
drivers. I hope Belkin gets Marvell to allow them to release at least
the source code or better to get them to add support for the 88W8864
into one of their mainline wireless drivers.

Hauke

[José Vázquez]

Post by Bjørn Mork

Post by Felix Fietkau
I've seen this happen to other open source related projects using
Marvell hardware as well, so the big question is whether Belkin can put
enough pressure on them to get the source code released.
Even if that happens, the source code will most likely need a rewrite or
an insane amount of cleanup, as is typical for proprietary wifi drivers
in the embedded space.
There are many signs that if released, the source code to this driver is
going to be horrible: weird function names, big module size, use of
custom vendor-specific hostapd and wpa_supplicant drivers. This is most
likely going to take a long time to resolve.

I know these comments are based on experience, but I still feel you are
a bit too pessimistic here :-)

Felix is not pessimistic; he knows better than most the high amount of
job and problems that generate a wifi driver with such few information
and, in addition it seems to use a different API. Take in mind that
the Broadcom wireless proprietary driver generate some problems from
time to time.

Post by Bjørn Mork
After all, we do have the mwl8k driver in mainline and Marvell has
commited a lot to that, including the 8764 bits. It's not too unlikely
that they will add 8864 support as well, is it? And wrt the size: Some
of this is probably due to firmware being built into the module. And
some is debugging symbols. The rest is of course bloat mostly caused by
unnecessary reimplementation.
Bjørn

In my opinion you are too confident about the similarities between
mwifiex[1], mwl8k[2] and the Avastar 88W8864 drivers.
How much wireless ICs aren't supported in linux and how much of them
have required a lot of job doing reverse engineering or clean room
development?
Being optimistic Marvell will release a binary file with some
additional code to "interface" with the OpenWRT wireless subsystem. We
will not see a free functional driver in months or ages.

Regards:

Pepe

[1]: http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers/mwifiex
[2]: http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers/mwl8k

Post by Bjørn Mork
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[Aaron Z]

Post by Peter Lawler
http://www.linksys.com/en-us/press/releases/2014-01-06_Linksys_wrt_revolutionizes_wireless_networking
"Linksys has also been working with the OpenWRT community to make an
open source firmware downloadable when product is available."
That sentence barely parses.
Making a firmware downloadable, but no source huh?
Working with the community but this thread suggests otherwise?
But hey, marketing.

Perhaps marketing is watching this thread? It now reads:
"Open Source is a vehicle for other communities, such as DD-WRT, Open WRT, and Tomato, to create their own custom versions of open source firmware for the product. OpenWRT developers will be provided hardware and SDKs/APIs to begin creating custom firmware for the WRT1900AC."
"An OpenWRT custom firmware for WRT1900AC is planned to be available for download online at availability in the spring 2014."

Aaron Z

[Maciej Soltysiak]

Post by Aaron Z
"Open Source is a vehicle for other communities, such as DD-WRT, Open WRT, and Tomato, to create their own custom versions of open source firmware for the product. OpenWRT developers will be provided hardware and SDKs/APIs to begin creating custom firmware for the WRT1900AC."

Optimistic read of this suggests that they will release some kind of
patches to adopt in various projects?

Post by Aaron Z
"An OpenWRT custom firmware for WRT1900AC is planned to be available for download online at availability in the spring 2014."

So OpenWRT will be the custom firmware? Will they then ship something
of their own? Based on what? OpenWRT?

Best regards,
Maciej

[Aaron Z]

Post by Fernando Frediani
However if they are only trying to take advantage of the OpenWRT name
but not really contributing and engaging with the community they
should
not get the expected result from anyone here.
I suspect there are people from Belkin/Linksys in this mail list and
already working on it, but I also believe they should be engaging
with
us and being more clear with they intentions and plans when they
mention OpenWRT in their marketing material. Nobody expects they to
show
any industrial secrets, but at least to work close to OpenWRT
developers
and release all the relevant open source material.

I agree. Had some spare time tonight, so I sent the contact person in the press release a comment to that effect pointing her to https://lists.openwrt.org/pipermail/openwrt-devel/2014-January/023272.html
We shall see what (if anything) comes of it.

Aaron Z

[Aaron Z]

----- Original Message -----

Post by Fernando Frediani
NDA = $$$ = Quiet
I just don't understand what is the problem, if it's really true, to
tell the most interested people (developers) that you are working on
something directly related to the project, even without giving any
further details due the NDA.

Perhaps the first rule of this particular NDA is that you cant confirm or deny the existence of the project and the associated NDA?

That would seem rather shortsighted and counterproductive in this case (given that they claim to want to ensure OpenWRT support, yet none of the core developers is claiming to have even seen one), but it wouldn't be the first case of a contract that was shortsighted and counterproductive.

Aaron Z

[Toke Høiland-Jørgensen]

There was a patch posted from linksys last week:

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.embedded.openwrt.devel/23500

-Toke

[Fernando Frediani]

That is very interesting.

Does anyone know if the source code of the .ko module was finally
provided by Belkin/Linksys ?

Jose-Vasquez - Regarding your other email why there is so much interest
on the WRT1900ac,, I think first because it was announced as a successor
of the famous WRT54G, which needless to say the importance of this in
the start of the project. Also despite the fact other hardwares like
TL-WDR7500 are very interesting indeed, this one has its merits on the
upcoming "ac" era and if Belkin/Linksys is truly interested to "work
with OpenWRT developers" means, in theory, an always welcome
contribution back to the project.

Best regards,

Fernando

Post by Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.embedded.openwrt.devel/23500
-Toke

[Chirag Chhatriwala]

Why is everyone so gung-ho on this device? YES its interesting. YES we all
want to see support.
People are working on it (or so we think). We just saw a patch being
submitted. We will understand how open source Belkin wants to be by the
steps the take in response to the feedback on their first submitted patch.
Everyone needs to tone down on the kool-aid and get back to life as usual.

We'll know when there are people in the know want to tell us something.

Bye,
Chirag

Post by Fernando Frediani
That is very interesting.
Does anyone know if the source code of the .ko module was finally provided
by Belkin/Linksys ?
Jose-Vasquez - Regarding your other email why there is so much interest on
the WRT1900ac,, I think first because it was announced as a successor of
the famous WRT54G, which needless to say the importance of this in the
start of the project. Also despite the fact other hardwares like TL-WDR7500
are very interesting indeed, this one has its merits on the upcoming "ac"
era and if Belkin/Linksys is truly interested to "work with OpenWRT
developers" means, in theory, an always welcome contribution back to the
project.
Best regards,
Fernando

Post by Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.embedded.openwrt.devel/23500
-Toke

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[José Vázquez]

Fernando, you are right: the WRT54G was the beginning of a lot of
great things, and now a lot of people contribute to OpenWRT, DD-WRT,
and some other projects that i can't remember in this moment thanks to
it.
A disagree a bit with "...Belkin/Linksys is truly interested to "work
with OpenWRT developers" means, in theory, an always welcome
contribution back to the project." but according to this changelog
(https://dev.openwrt.org/log/trunk/target/linux/mvebu?rev=40420) seems
that the initial and hard job in OpenWRT were made by Florian, Luka
(actual maintainer), Juhosg and others, in addition to the patches
that other developers sent to the kernel. I can be wrong but
Belkin/Linksys seems that are using existing code and adapting it,
which is the right way, for its board; a wonderful board, of course, a
black beast.

The patch 0030-mamba-mvebu-support-wifi-non-security.patch points that
the wifi driver uses a proprietary API instead cfg80211, like Broadcom
did with its proprietary wireless driver. :(

To summarize: despite de precompiled wireless driver, welcome Linksys WRT1900ac!

Best regards:

José

P.S.: i'm a bit sensitive with my surname.

Post by Fernando Frediani
That is very interesting.
Does anyone know if the source code of the .ko module was finally
provided by Belkin/Linksys ?
Jose-Vasquez - Regarding your other email why there is so much interest
on the WRT1900ac,, I think first because it was announced as a successor
of the famous WRT54G, which needless to say the importance of this in
the start of the project. Also despite the fact other hardwares like
TL-WDR7500 are very interesting indeed, this one has its merits on the
upcoming "ac" era and if Belkin/Linksys is truly interested to "work
with OpenWRT developers" means, in theory, an always welcome
contribution back to the project.
Best regards,
Fernando

Post by Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.embedded.openwrt.devel/23500
-Toke

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[Hartmut Knaack]

Post by Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.embedded.openwrt.devel/23500

I would expect, that all on this thread were aware of that. Anyway, (I didn't check all of them, but) those patches also miss a Signed-off-by, the only thing getting close to an author is that:

From: Anonymous <***@veriksystems.com>
Let's see, how it will progress.

Post by Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
-Toke
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